Now Lesbians Sleep with Men. It wasn’t like this in my Day…
November 4, 2010 14 Comments
I often wonder why I don’t take part in the trans/ LGBT / Queercommunity. But every so often I pop out of my little lair and venture into the that community, and I realise how little I have in common with them. Then I go back into my world. Recently I popped over to Matt’s Blog , I thought I might have something to offer the original questioner, whose relationship may break down through no fault of her own. She had asked whether she could still be a dyke if she was dating a trans guy.
I said that it was likely that a trans man would not want to date a lesbian, so the relationship may be doomed. I wouldn’t want to date a lesbian. Dating a lesbian is not something men do, it’s not part of the social role expected of men, much like wearing high heeled shoes to work in an office. If men date lesbians or wear high healed shoes to it doesn’t mean that they’re not men, but it does mean that they are transgressing the male social role. I also ventured to offer that most lesbians wouldn’t want to date men. One of the responses was that plenty of women labeled themselves as lesbians and still dated men, I had no right to challenge this because everyone had the right to label themselves.
Does everyone have a right to label themselves?
I can label myself as a man because I know that I am a man. But I can’t label myself as cis man, because I am not a cis man. It would be lying. When it comes to gender we in the trans community take the fact that yes, everyone has a right to label their gender. But my colleagues who work in gender reassignment don’t take this as a right, they expect trans people to have adopted the social role of the opposite sex prior to surgery and hormones. I’m not sure whether I agree with my colleagues or other transpeople. Which is why I don’t get involved in that sort of work.
But we don’t have a right to label ourselves anything we please. For instance I might wish to declare that I am a vet, and start treating animals. But as it is I am not qualified to be a vet, and don’t know how to treat animals, so I can’t label myself as one because it is not true.Now back in my day lesbian, gay and bisexual was a label that described who you wanted to sleep with now and in the future. Lesbian women were women who slept with women and not men, when women realised that they were lesbians and came out they would often end their relationships. Now it seems that’s something different is going on. Now it seems that you can identify as a lesbian and still sleep with men. Apparently lots of lesbians do this and I am out of touch for not knowing this.
That may be true but if lesbian is a political identity and not a description of who you sleep with then several things happen:
- - It means that the label lesbian is actually something you choose. This will really confuse people who you have told that it’s something you can’t change.
- - More men are going to make sexual advances at lesbians. At the moment most men don’t make a sexual advance towards a woman who has told them that she is a lesbian. Now if it’s known that some lesbians choose to sleep with men then some men are more likely to make sexual advances towards lesbians.
- - It has medical implications. The international society of lesbians hasn’t told doctors of this change in definition. So most doctors will assume that lesbians don’t sleep with men, so are unlikely to ask if you are on contraception or at risk of pregnancy. I’ve seen lesbians who were really offended when I double checked that they couldn’t be pregnant before giving drugs or radiation that would harm a foetus. There are a number of drugs that are contraindicated in early pregnancy, and when they are given to women of childbearing age they have to be on reliable contraception. And that doesn’t mean condoms. I would insist that a heterosexual woman was on proper contraception, I wouldn’t insist that a lesbian woman was. I would assume that if a woman told me that she was a lesbian she was unlikely to have an accidental pregnancy. She may choose to get pregnant,but she is really less likely to be accidentally pregnant. If you are going to identify as a woman who is a lesbian, but sleeps with men then please do tell your doctor without being asked. Most doctors aren’t queer, and aren’t going to be aware of the change in definition of lesbian.
So it seems that the queer world has changed since I left it. Sexuality is about identity, not who you go to bed with.
i had a little chuckle reading this one because i was also in the lesbian world before i realised myself. for some time i used to hang out online at a lesbian forum and i also discovered this phenomenon. it annoyed the hell outta me the first time i got really friendly (not romantic) with a girl there who claimed to be lesbian, had some great posts and wonderful thoughts on what she’d like out of a relationship with a woman… when asked how many other women she’d had experience with, she claimed none. all her relationships at that point had been with men and in her next few posts she was talking about dating men… i thought i missed something too and was more confused than ever.
it was the genderqueers and lesbian bois who helped me see the light with myself because i discovered i was different from them as well… met the t-boys and the rest was history for me with online contact. i won’t hang out with lesbians anymore because i don’t feel like one of them, i don’t enjoy womanhood like women do at all. i’m interested in straight women and straight MTF women but not lesbians… and lesbians who sleep with men… isn’t that a bi-lesbian? who am i to label right, but… lesbians don’t do men, lol.
I’m confused. Sorry…
Interesting you should blog about this. I’ve recently joined a walking group (actually I’ve stopped short of actually going on walks) that defines itself as ‘women mainly lesbians’ and I felt quite confident about fitting into this group. There is however a social swimming group I’d like to join which is LGBT and I did wonder if I could pass myself of as B but currently monogamous. I also have an online mummy friend who describes herself as lesbian but is married to a man and has a child by another man. I can’t help but think that a straight woman sleeps with women she is not straight she’s B so how can a lesbian sleep with men and not be B? Then I thought actually it’s non of my business as I don’t intend to sleep wi5th this woman…Shame about the swimming though..
I’m pretty sure it’s not for me to decide how other people ‘should’ identify based on MY ideas of their sexuality. If a woman wants to identify as lesbian, that’s her ID to determine…not mine. I don’t want a bunch of cispeople sitting around deciding MY identity…ergo, it’s not for me to decide someone else’s ID.
I DID want to note two things in your blog that really do not in any way parallel my experience. The first being that straight men don’t hit on lesbians. That has been farrrrrrrr from my own personal reality. When I was perceived lesbian (for over 20 years before I transitioned), LOTS AND LOTS of men hit on me, my girlfriends, my lesbian friends, etc. TONS. I wouldn’t even be able to count them all. It’s almost like a prize to ‘bag a lesbian’. Your mileage will obviously vary.
The second thing I wanted to note was your comments re: pregnancy and doctors. I can’t tell you how many pregnancy tests I have had to pay for in my lifetiime, and how many doctors have asked repeatedly if I might be pregnant. At one point, I was even told by a doctor that I was pregnant, and I shouldn’t try to hide it. Again, obviously, your mileage may vary.
In conclusion, it’s not for me to decide how a woman IDs herself. I’m neither a lesbian nor a woman. I don’t think that’s something that’s up for men (cis or trans) to decide. And it’s certainly not something that’s up for a discussion/determination by a bunch of men. Additionally, the dynamics of trans-relationships are far too complex to define by binary terms of lesbian, straight, and bi.
I can understand the confusing nature of a term that seems to be without meaning now. However, there is a huge “Bi Stigma” that has many women who prefer women to label themselves as Lesbian even though they have exceptions to that label. I’ve known a large number of Lesbian-identified women who would be more accurately called homoflexible as in they are mostly homosexual but there might be a few folks who pique their interest who are male. However, they don’t want the attention and BS of being “bi” since its become an almost popular thing for women to claim to attract straight men who fetishize women with other women. This is how the terms “two drink dyke” and “bi for my guy” became common use terms regarding normally hetero females who seek out same-sex interactions to get free drinks at the bar or to gain/keep the attention of males who think “its hot.”
I’ve also known lesbians who were partnered with another individual who decided to transition from FtM. In that case I’ve seen that the women who ID’d as lesbian often stay in the relationship with their partner and still refer to themselves as lesbian because this person they love is the only exception. I have often seen it though, where they simply move to “Queer” as their ID since they feel conflicted about using “lesbian” since their partner is invalidated about their own gender by them.
I’ve had a similar thing with my husband as I’ve started transitioning. He asked if that made him bi and I told him that it depended on which side of him was interacting with me (he’s gender fluid). We can joke about it, but its a serious identity crisis for a lot of folks who are already in relationships when their partner decides to come out about their TG status.
Wow, this “who gets to be lesbian” crap is why I identify as queer. I figure that the policing of our bodies, our sex-lives, our choice in lovers has been pretty well covered by the culture at large. Seems like the best thing we can do in defense is to not buy into the same oppressive pigeon-holing that we (as queers and trans people) feel the painful force of every day.
Wouldn’t supporting eachother in breaking away from a system of categorization that is clearly destructive be good? Wouldn’t it be better to find the guts and the imagination to create new ways of identifying and interacting with eachother?
What you’re doing here re-fitting a homophobic culture’s methods of making us feel shitty and applying it as a queer to other queers. Not cool.
I identify as trans, my partner is a queer woman, I have fucked men, I have dated dozens of women (straight, queer, lesbian, butch, femme…), and feel that what you’re saying has nothing to do with my experience or the experience of the community of queers I’m part of. Do your homework, things have moved the fuck on from second-wave feminism.
Am I? Well I’m sorry if I actually have offended.
I’m interested that whilst you object to me labeling lesbians then you label me as Queer, when I really don’t think I am Queer at all. If I was queer I would get what on earth you were upset by. I haven’t been part of the Queer or LGB community for nearly 10 years now. I’ve been busy enjoying my heterosexual male privilege to bother, and I’m afraid it’s an increasingly alien culture to me. This post was part of me tracking how far away I am from a community that I have very little in common with now
Well, as someone who definately doesn’t identify with the “lesbian community”, but identifies strongly as queer, I’ll give you a little update since you been out of the loop
We’re realizing the obvious: that just because it’s someone else getting fucked over doesn’t mean I get to ignore it. We’re learning that ALL of our struggles actually intersect, and that the only way to really achieve and enjoy freedom of any kind is to work for the best interests of all oppressed people. So, we work on our racism, cuz racism is fucked up right? We don’t want to live in a racist society anymore. And we work on our misogyny because those old-school sexist attitudes are pathetic and damaging and we want to live in a world without that, right?
And we don’t rag on eachother for our chosen identities. We support eachother in building a movement, in getting free.
Too bad you’re not on board anymore, enjoy your privilege while it lasts buddy!
many women don’t identify as bi cos…
1) they were told to choose 1 side
2) they can be ostracized by both sides
3) they were misunderstood that they get the best of both worlds, which is really irritating cos it’s so darn difficult to meet someone who can connect with you in the first place
4) the probability that they receive sexual requests from perverts is higher
Ok, a different question, what is the point of having a inaccurate description?
It’s interesting to me that you would ask this question.
Women enjoy thinking of themselves as lesbians and enjoy the sense of community they have with other lesbians, and for some, the living they make off their lesbian audience — and they like sex with men.
In the same way that other females might enjoy thinking of themselves as men and enjoy being percieved as men, despite being biologically female.
Wasn’t it Dan Savage who wrote that half his lesbian friends slept with men and the other half were transitioning to be men?
I am a 23 year old female. I identify as a “pansexual”. I know several butch lesbians who have slept with men. I honestly do not understand it. I am married to a trans guy. Before him, I identified as a straight woman. I met him in the beginning phases of his transition, as a male. After learning he was TG I realized I never actually cared what gender someone identified with, as long as I’m happy. Gay, straight, mtf, genderqueer… I’d love him all the same.
Often times not everything is so clear-cut. This is why I don’t like labels either. It’s not that I’m not aware of what labels “would” apply to my or are given to me by other people. But if I say “I’m transsexual” for some people that entails many things to which I don’t relate. And everyone has their own ideas of what a gay, lesbian, straight, transgendered, transsexual, transwhatever person is.
I see what you mean, that you can’t call yourself cis because you’re not and so on. Well, sometimes things are clear. I know that I cannot call me cis and straight either. But when we try to better define what we ARE, things start getting harder. And even in the cases when we do know full well what we “consider ourselves to be”, we have to bear in mind that it could mean different things for other people. So, I would say that if this girl considers herself a lesbian and is dating a guy, that’s Ok. We cannot tell her what she HAS to be or that she should change her “label”. For other people (probably you, me and a significant number of those who claim to be lesbians), dating a guy is incompatible with “being a lesbian” and if they find themselves in such a situation they wouldn’t stick to their “lesbian” label.
It’s all a matter of perspective, of your own views. And I think everyone should have the right (not) to label themselves as they wish. And being open is in part accepting that as valid instead of trying to force a certain behaviour, role, expectation, sexual preference and so on based on the “label” they have attached.
The fact is that many women (and men) love the benign hormone rush one gets from having semen deposited in close proximity to a mucus membrane. Semen is *designed* by millions of years of evolution to feel very pleasant indeed when absorbed by an intimate participant in penetrative sex with the “real McCoy,” and contains an amazing mix of hormones and chemicals designed (mostly) to make females feel good about having sex with a male, feel good after having sex with a male, and develop behaviour patterns which favour sexual reproduction, because that’s how baby animals (and people) are made. Saying that “lesbians” can’t like to have sex with men is something like saying that lesbians never use drugs of any sort, or drink alcohol to the point of a pleasant “buzz.” It’s the way we’re built.
Men too like it (if they try it once or twice — enough to become habituated to the feeling) which is why “barebacking” is still so popular amongst gay and bisexual men, even though everyone “knows” that it’s a taking a stupid chance. There’s nothing like the rush of coming on a powerful drug to encourage all sorts of risky behaviour.
Whether or not one identifies as anything (or everything) along the LBGTH spectrum doesn’t make one bit of difference. A person’s a person, no matter how small, not matter how tall.